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Ams Jendob
CMAC Battlemaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8644
Location: Coruscant

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:04pm    Post subject:
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Oh, shut up. You'll be operating 40% of the damn thing soon enough.

Quote:
There is a reason we took the piss out of Ams for introducing Terminators with the models accurate down to the universal name and there is a reason such things have been scrapped and prohibited over time.

Funny, I don't seem to recall this. You'd think I would...

And the Tau aren't an explicit ripoff, otherwise, yes... they would've been banned from the outset. It's just some names. ;)
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Nevin Antilles
CMAC Webmaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1695

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:05pm    Post subject:
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We are not forcibly removing anything from the game. I've stated that multiple times. For instance, I may want to take back all of your Force users that you garnered, that I approved against my better judgment. But, I'm not going to, because CMAC approved it already. If Xaph wants to retire the Tau, or if they at some time don't meet the minimum faction requirement, that's fine. If he wants to retire their designs and make new ones, that's fine. But we're not forcing people to give up things when we're trying to make people come back to the game.

Generally we don't like crossovers and we are going to be stricter with them when approving new designs or ideas in the future. But Xaph has been a loyal player, and there's no reason to punish him for being involved in the game.
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Adria Reyna
First Sergeant


Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 676

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:11pm    Post subject:
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Some names, and a species appearence, and the same culture...

My internal angry disgruntled RPer goes off around the horn when it detects poorly disguised ripoffs. There is a reason I blew up the Warlock emulating Richard from LFG last D&D session.

Seeing stuff nicked from other canons so blatently rates pretty high in the list of factors in the big list of putting people seriously intrested in solid Star Wars canon - while opening the list to people who like playing rediculous ideas they stole from the latest movie/game/tv series they watched rather than investing time and creativity into creating a faction that does in-effect work ingame.

We've soley outright banned Mando's why the heck haven't we soley outright banned crossovers when they are delivered atop a big steaming pile of bantha dung with 'obvious direct ripoff' stamped all over them - just because CMAC doesn't know the canon, doesn't meen other people coming to this site wont, Ams's terminators were at least covertly hidden away in the Imperial Intelligence hidden forums and a smattering of posts - the Tau are quite blatantly here, in force, with nowt changed to make them seem even remotley unique rather than a 'few names' copied like Ams suggests.

I meen we have the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind banned, and Space Marines - both of those come from the same universe as the Tau - allowing the Tau to continue as they are, in an unedited state is directly equivilent to us adopting Klingons, Mimbari, Asgard, Cylons, Martians, Clangers, Drow, Hobbits, the Aracnids, the Blob, interdimensional-aliens-from-Crystal-Skull or Galacticus, as given creatures within our universe...

Theres no harm in nicking a few names and a species' appearence, theres plenty of harm when you directly prise an idea directly out of another canon.
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Last edited by Adria Reyna on Mon, January 26th 2009 10:37pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ams Jendob
CMAC Battlemaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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Location: Coruscant

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:19pm    Post subject:
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Well, we still wub you, Adria. *hugs*

:p
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Carnor Jax
ECP Member/Faction Lieutenant


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1304
Location: Just follow the trail of blood...

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:25pm    Post subject:
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Ben, that is quite enough.

Do you have any idea how much I've sacrificed to try to appease you? Giving up the most fun elements of my positions, offering you a place on High Command, coming to you for advice, and trying to work with you on several occasions to increase your power and influence in an in-character way. All of them have fallen through. And why? Because you're not patient.

I helped Xaph with the creation of several viable ship designs that were relatively inexpensive, such as a platform transport that by itself would be cheap, and combined with Golans would still be cheap, but in this game would provide a devastating blow because it utilized an under-used idea. Of the limited activity I've seen of the Tau, they don't seem like a ripoff to me. And why has he been inactive? Because YOU keep blasting him at every chance.

The reason things are being removed that are the rip-offs from the Imperial camp are not just because they are rip-offs, but because they are some of the most blatant superdesigns out there. Liquid Mimetic Polyalloy is a design feature that should never have been introduced (Sorry, Ams), the Terminator line is all but broken. But to ask to get rid of an entire faction because YOU and YOU alone hate the basis of the idea is a selfish and utterly despicable.

Have you considered that the reason Ams and I have controlling stake in the Empire is because we do the work? Have you seen what goes into managing even one arm of the military? You yourself have told me that you have no interest in administration, only battle command. That's the fun part, the reward for what we do. You have no idea how hard I worked on the Starfighter Corps to get it to be viable. When I started, we had the fleet we did just before the turnover, but less than ten thousand starfighters.

And now, in the midst of the overhaul that is taking so much energy out of CMAC, you're sitting there complaining that you don't have a controlling stake in the Empire. You want it? Take it. But you have to set EVERYTHING from the ground up. Planetary defense grids, base designs, asset allocation of starfighter and Stormtrooper, a complete reworking of the command heirarchy to compensate for the drastic reduction in numbers.

I'm through trying to work with people that walk around backstabbing me. I'm always here if people want ideas for storylines, I'm more than willing to work with people to ensure the continuation of this board... but I personally will not stand for this childish and utterly puerile stance you're taking.

Xaph. Valid points, and from what I've witnessed the bulk of them will be resolved with this new system. Give it a chance, and see what you feel about it. Thank you for the thought and concern you've shown for the game.
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Adria Reyna
First Sergeant


Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 676

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:37pm    Post subject:
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See the thing thats been misinterpreted here Rory is some idea that I begrudge the fact that I don't run the Empire, I'm happy not to run it - thats kinda the point I raised when I was beeing accused of beeing part of some non-existant club responsible for dooing everything in High Command and beeing mean to the lessers.

Let us carry on to yet again illustrate that Ams has on occasions granted me powers - I've actually never made any attempt to expand unnecissarily beyond the powers granted to me and the fact that you are CONSTANTLY obsessed with this idea that I'm backstabbing you is quite rediculous - the only power promises I get are when I go along with your schemes, which I am more than happy to support - however my single sole gains in power, beeing made leader of the Inquisition and beeing made a Supreme Moff were guided by Ams's decisions to trust me, if it wasn't for you consistently going off and claiming to Ams that I'm attempting to screw you/him/the Empire over, then I'd probably have a better working relationship with Ams.

I am allowed to make a clear and coherent point that I personally believe that beeing stepped in ripoffs damages site images, Rory, I am not your sole slave to be ordered about as you so wish, this is a realm for discussing the RPG, and I'm discussing a point I feel passionatley about. I'm making sure my point is clearly stated from my perspective and now that that has been accomplished I stand ready to defend my position.
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Carnor Jax
ECP Member/Faction Lieutenant


Joined: 29 May 2006
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Location: Just follow the trail of blood...

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:46pm    Post subject:
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Your 'discussing a point you feel passionately about' feels a lot like a witchhunt. You've expressed the idea several times, your point has been noted and we've tried to discuss it with you like civilized human beings, but you keep coming back to the "OMFG TAU R TEH KR0SS0VAR BAN HIM LAWLZ" point. And we're sick of it.

AS to the backstabbing... what else would you call it? You express frustration that there's only two people running the Empire when at first there was only one (Brent's Vader liked the character, hated administration). And yet, you don't want a ruling stake? What are we supposed to do with this? Introduce another member of High Command for you to say is stealing your power?

Your points are imbalanced, illogical, and to be honest quite frustrating. You're taking multiple sides of an argument just so you can be pissed off when one of them has to fall through. I said before, and you seemingly forgot about this point: I have done a lot to try to help you. All I've asked is that you come to me to let me explain things to you before you do something stupid like this.

If we removed the Tau, suddenly CMAC would be an unstoppable juggernaut that 'refuses to let good players have a chance.' You are impossible to satiate, and I'm thoroughly convinced that you simply like complaining about every little nit that is ruining your game experience. Have you stopped to consider how many people you're pissing off with these shenanigans?
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Adria Reyna
First Sergeant


Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 676

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 10:56pm    Post subject:
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I'm not unhappy to let you two run the Empire, after seeing the tactical numbers I'd have to deal with I KNOW why I don't want to run the Empire - you seizing on this point is a little hypocrytical given the fact that you have been the sole person to take any form of DIRECT action to try and attack the Tau - regardless of you claiming on MSN at the moment that I apparently made the command of you, lets not forget that you were the sole catalyst for the attempt - I helped out, and I got smacked for it it doesn't stop me making repeat lobbies to CMAC about the continued existance which I believe is damaging, with effect to our outside appearence.

As to your other points, I'm tired of getting into No competitions with you Rory, you tend to get very boring and irational and start claiming all sorts of outlandish things, most of which end up with me getting punished and you wandering off with an idiotic grin plastered on your face so without further adeu, I'll be sticking to responding to actual CMAC instead of your constantly attempts to dig graves for me.

I was making my point to CMAC, my point remains with CMAC to answer - likely I'll get some kind of finality NO, and I guess I'll have to go and sulk in my corner.
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Last edited by Ams Jendob on Mon, January 26th 2009 11:08pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ams Jendob
CMAC Battlemaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 8644
Location: Coruscant

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 11:11pm    Post subject:
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Ben, I will thank you to watch your language. If I have to edit again, there's a formal warning in it.

Secondly, both of you, knock it off. MSN exists for a reason and we're trying to bring the game back together. Now, Ben, if you're unhappy with your station, responsibilities, or any other aspect of your command, then contact me privately.

As for this point to CMAC, if it relates to the continued existence of the Tau, then that has already been addressed by Nevin. We are not forcing anything out. Period.
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Carnor Jax
ECP Member/Faction Lieutenant


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1304
Location: Just follow the trail of blood...

 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 11:13pm    Post subject:
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Ben.

Your methods and execution are agonizingly frustrating. In my personal dealings with you, I've offered a lot of my own personal abilities in order to make you feel more at home. In bargaining with Ams I gave up a lot of what I enjoyed to get you what you desired. And all I see here is that you are still angry.

Perhaps I am a bit over-sensitive. Yes, Xaph too has borne the brunt of my frustration at some point. But it was not a hunt against him because of the Tau. And that was back before I had the sense knocked into me by a certain member of CMAC. I've changed a lot since those days.

It still feels to me, though, that you remain the same. I still try, and you're still frustrated. It's a dance you and I are both familiar with, we've run through the steps more times than I would care to count. All I want to know is exactly what would satisfy you. What would make you happy to play in this game, and not complain.

That's all I've tried to do in my role as ECP. Try to give people what they want via in-game shifts. Offering my characters to spar against, meet with, dinners or battles. As I recall, you and I had a rather intricate idea between Volytar and Jax, one that didn't pan out because of various issues. Nevertheless, I am still willing to work with people when I can.

I'm sorry for dragging up ancient animosities, but it sometimes feels like the only way to have a rational, reasonable conversation. I'm sorry it has to keep coming to this, but the ends seem to justify the means. Now that this discussion has been logged for posterity, I hope we can keep things settled.
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Ams Jendob
CMAC Battlemaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 11:17pm    Post subject:
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Guys... private. Imp forums, at least.
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Volytar
First Sergeant


Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 11:17pm    Post subject:
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Fair enough.

So...what happened to Hans idea for providing jobs to keep Bounty Hunters happy?
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Ams Jendob
CMAC Battlemaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 11:19pm    Post subject:
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The main problem with Bounty Hunters--in my eyes--is they're too targeted. Now, you can sic them on an NPC, but that ranges from useless to borderline godmod. If you put a PCC in their crosshairs, then issues just become ugly. I truthfully cannot think of a way to make bounty hunters effectively function. :?

If Han, Cray, and Zara can do it, then by all means let them speak for CMAC on this issue.
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Volytar
First Sergeant


Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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 Post Posted: Mon, January 26th 2009 11:36pm    Post subject:
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Well, we had some success with Ailyn helping track people...I dunno...perhaps enabling them as some form of tactical-controlled agent?
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Han Solo
CMAC Artist


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 12:01am    Post subject:
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Volytar wrote:
So...what happened to Hans idea for providing jobs to keep Bounty Hunters happy?


My idea was never designed to cover bounty hunters. It was aimed more at pirates, smugglers and their ilk.
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"You know, if you could apply that smuggler's brain to real politics, you'd be my equal."
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Volytar
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 12:38am    Post subject:
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Same difference...
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Ams Jendob
CMAC Battlemaster


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 12:55am    Post subject:
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...Noooooooooo... :p

Bounty Hunters capture and kill people. Smugglers and pirates just go for things. Things are easy. People are not.
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Volytar
First Sergeant


Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 01:05am    Post subject:
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SILENCE
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Kilvec Ordo
Lieutenant


Joined: 04 Jun 2007
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 02:01am    Post subject:
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Bounty hunter fix... they choose important targets, and have to make a sound plan. If their plan sucks, they fail, are captured and probably killed, and everyone goes on with their lives. Their plan works, they make a sh*t load of money and go home a big damn... scumbag. It's only worthwhile if the people they kill or capture have some sort of repercussions, however.
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Kilvec Ordo

Chief Commander of the Citadel Krytocracy

"You just broke physics."-Peyr Baelish

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Han Solo
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 02:13am    Post subject:
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That would be a fine plan if the hunter was going after an NPC. But as soon as you switch your target to a PC character, things become complicated. Where do we draw the line and how can we make this fair for both parties? It's never a fun thing to have your only PC character targeted for death.

This is where we're currently stuck.
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"Meaning I wouldn't be able to just draw my blaster and shoot the politicians? What kind of a deal is that?"

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Tiara Tranada
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 30 May 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 02:28am    Post subject:
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Han Solo wrote:
That would be a fine plan if the hunter was going after an NPC. But as soon as you switch your target to a PC character, things become complicated. Where do we draw the line and how can we make this fair for both parties? It's never a fun thing to have your only PC character targeted for death.

This is where we're currently stuck.

Actually, the RPG Rules already define the line in the sand.

Quote:
Death
All character deaths must be approved either by the player of the targeted character, or by CMAC unanimous vote.
Dismemberment
All serious and/or debilitating injuries to a character (including limb amputation, long-term paralyzation, and infection) require player consent.
Capture
All character captures must be mutually consented or approved by CMAC in the event of dispute only.

Besides, there is always a reason for a death mark, even in Star Wars. If people start using OOC grudges to place IC bounties, everyone is gonna know about it because the reasoning will be flawed.

On a related note, I would be willing to sponsor bounties on NPCs and create scenarios for each, giving an actual dossier on the NPC in question rather than just giving a name and a death mark or a name and an occupation.
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Volytar
First Sergeant


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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 02:29am    Post subject:
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So? The majority of PC characters are so-placed that no intelligent Hunter in their right mind would go after them - theres plenty of non named mooks around the place for CMAC to make up to help independents as a WHOLE move around.

Alternatively you could have someone in charge of independents
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Han Solo
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 02:43am    Post subject:
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Thanks for that, Tiara.

We generally stick to that rule, but in some cases in the past, we had some people disregard that rule due to personal issues and pursue PC characters anyway. It's not a pretty picture and it doesn't happen often, but it's there all the same.

As for your idea of setting up NPC campaigns for bounty hunter characters, I think that has a lot of potential. If you have a chance to flesh that out, I would love to see what you have in mind. :)
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Alatáriël Pallanén
ECP Member


Joined: 30 May 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 05:51am    Post subject:
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I must say, I enjoy the Tau. I thought their entrance into the game was interesting, and I honestly looked forward to doing business with them. (Which is still on the table), what I meant to apply in the suggestion forum, was I was willing help bolster your economy with some contracts and deals, because that would help me as well. Xaph, thank you for your input...as it calls many things I was wondering myself into public eye, and your thorough approach in describing them. : D

And though the RA Security concerns are a page away, I must point out once again, that not every character is black and white in this game. Arlyn is a mix of both, though as tight as security was, in my opinion, all the Rebels were quite safe. :P I was always open to suggestions, though it was frustrating to be the only RA character posting about, and being one of the most active players, I grew bored and misplaced my attention into perfecting security.

Sure you get emotional when someone attacks your gameplay, but I've seen the light. I was able to walk away...I wasn't fired from my job, mind you, I showed Han and Cray that I wasn't in it for the power, but more of the busten-balls-hardcore-Security-Chief, which I guess went a little off the deep end. :P You live, and you learn. I think everyone here can agree we've all started in one role, and it's evolved and changed over the duration of the game. Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Arlyn, Ams Jendob, Carnor Jax, from Alexus Seinar to Jahan and Velora...some roles, we understand and perform better, others, we simply learn to adapt, or change.

Rory, you've done an excellent job, alongside Xaph. His motivation behind his suggestions and his comments were never meant to hinder our change, but increase insight... And Ben, welcome back. It's nice to see Volytar back in action....or...is it? Scary cloakcreature. :P

Any ways, I think we've hit a small bump, but this was handled WAY better than previous disagreements. :P

Cheers to Zara, btw. :P
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Xaph
Cadet


Joined: 31 May 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue, January 27th 2009 01:14pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
I think that has a lot of potential. If you have a chance to flesh that out, I would love to see what you have in mind. :)


I'd be more than happy to take over the Exchange, if Bounto is inactive. Not as a organization or faction in any way (in that, it would have nothing to do with Xaph or any of my other characters, but rather ALWAYS be a shadowy organization within which it would be nigh-impossible to track down it's members) but purely as a game mechanic. I have plenty of time, ideas, time, and more time to RP with characters as NPCs, and it would give new players a chance not only to begin roleplaying, but also getting active with other members.

This could also expand to such things as pirates and smugglers -- I could RP customs agents or such (or anyone who you appoint could), and different requests could be put up in the forum by both the NPC organization (which again I stress, I would have absoloutely NO IC relation to) and through it by players (I always liked that facet of the Exchange).

But, I see Bounto has posted (relatively) recently in the Exchange forum...so if he's still doing it, I could probably provide some sample mission/campaign-type ideas I had.

Quote:
I thought their entrance into the game was interesting, and I honestly looked forward to doing business with them. (Which is still on the table),


PM me if you have any ideas, I have a veritable wealth of nearby Alliance planets to trade with. Also, I really want to RP the Tau visiting foreign planets.

Quote:
The Tau


I am not going to directly respond to anything Ben said, because quite frankly, it would continue the argument. Instead I'm going to state that aside from their design (and yes, some names, because they were pretty damn cool) I really don't know much about the Tau. I mean, I know what their units look like in the Warhammer game, but I've never read a 40,000 backstory novel (I prefer Fantasy). So aside from aesthetics, I'm not crossing over. Their culture is based more on what little I know of ancient Chinese culture than what I've read about the game.

And seriously, ANYONE who wants to interact with the Tau, just PM me, please! I have so much free time to RP with you that it really isn't funny :p
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