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Concerning Superships
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Star Wars: Episode VIII: Binds of Tyranny Forum Index » Questions and Suggestions » Concerning Superships
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How do you feel about Superships?
They are a bane to the board, and should be destroyed
70%
 70%  [ 12 ]
They make the game interesting, and should be saved at all costs
23%
 23%  [ 4 ]
I designed a supership, and I don't want to loose it
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I designed a supership. biggest mistake of my gaming life.
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 17

Author Message
Thanates Scyntor
Corporal


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 208
Location: inside your head

 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 03:48pm    Post subject: Concerning Superships
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Superships. Akula, Chancellor, Apex. They have been a source of belly-aching and heartache for this board almost since the inception of their designs. Ships fractions of the size of the Executor Star Dreadnought, that can outmaneuver, outgun, and outrun said ship. The reasoning behind their creation was that, with the current battlesystem, small ships with huge amounts of firepower were preferred over huge fleets. And for the longest times, I agreed, even insofar as to support the continuation of the Empire's all-Akula fleet.

However, with the evolution of the game, circumstances have to be reconsidered. At the battles of Thyferra and Korriban, the game was taken ultimately to a pure Roleplay perspective. With myself as Ferdinand Cartos at Thyferra, and Carnor Jax at Korriban, I took over the fleet mechanic of the game and worked with parties responsible at both areas, to work out compromises. This included the loss of the Terminator at Thyferra. It was these compromises to the game that allowed the battles to end quickly after the change was implimented, and allowed the game to continue when the battles would STILL be going on now.

A supership, by my classification, any vessel that does not conform to the "standard arc" of armement and shield/hull strength. For example, drawing a line between the proportions of the CR-90 Corvette and the Victory-I Star Destroyer, a correlation between size, guns, starfighter compliments, troop compliments, and mass can be applied, as well as an inverse correlation to maneuverability and sublight speed. An Executor Star Dreadnought, for its size, is fast, but it also requires a proportionally heavier crew to compensate for the size of the reactor as well as the computer systems.

To those of you arguing that the cost of these ships should be factored into the equation, I have two words for you. Grow up. The currency system of this game has allowed for massive budgets, so spending even 15 billion credits is nothing to be worried about. Cost is simply an arbitrary number to describe the accumulation of research time, personel, and materials needed to build said ship. It has nothing to do with the ships overall technical specifications.

It is for this reason that I classify the Akula, Chancellor, and Apex Destroyer/Dreadnoughts as superships. Their insane cost is irrelevant, only their skewed proportions are what matter to me. A ship that small, that fast, with that much firepower and the level of shielding is not only unrealistic, it makes the ship impossible to destroy. That, unless I miss my guess, is a rather splendid definition of godmodding.

What I propose is this: Eliminate the superships. Anyone that purchased them will be entitled to a full refund of the purchase price, and any company that had to pay a research cost will be compensated in the form of an OOC "redo" rain check by the CMAC design approval council. however, this cannot be used on just anything. To prevent the complaints about the Empire's Executor Dreadnought and its lack of counterpart, I propose the following measure.

That "redo" rain check will be offered to the producers of the Chancellor and Apex destroyer/Dreadnoughts to produce a ship that is on the scale of the Executor. A massive command ship with the best technologies available to serve as the focal point for an attack or defense fleet. Something that follows the proportionality lines I described above. however, to prevent the abuse of this rain check, it will be good for only one design submission. If it is not approved, you loose your opportunity to create a Command Ship free of charge. To this will be added the stipulation that you will be allowed a VERY limited number, in direct porportion to the size of the rest of a factions fleets.

This poll, at the moment, is open to all user-members of the board. Ams, Cray, Han... please, if you want, post your views but do not vote. I want an unbiased view of the way the board feels about superships in the game. Only one vote per person, please, and put some effort in this... after you vote, post a complete list of your characters, and describe your point of view on superships.

Thank you for your time and consideration to this poll.
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Brent - Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing... how embarrassing. says:
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Thanates Scyntor
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 03:50pm    Post subject:
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Carnor Jax
Thanates Scyntor
Socra Testudinata
Ferdinand Cartos
DT-042

Voted: Eliminate the superships.

For my views, please reference the original post.
_________________


"I do not forgive. Look into my eyes, and you will see only the promise of Hell."

~~~~~~~~~

Brent - Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing... how embarrassing. says:
DT-IVs are MY pets
Dj (VIII is begining to piss me off.) says:
SCREW YOUR PETS!
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob says:
Indeed.
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Velora Antana
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 03:53pm    Post subject:
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Velora Antana
Alexus Sienar
Cogent Cepheid
Yusana Fennis
Arnold Rimmer

Voted: Eliminate the superships

They unbalance the game far too much, and they shit all over canon.

Quote:
That "redo" rain check will be offered to the producers of the Chancellor and Apex destroyer/Dreadnoughts to produce a ship that is on the scale of the Executor. A massive command ship with the best technologies available to serve as the focal point for an attack or defense fleet. Something that follows the proportionality lines I described above. however, to prevent the abuse of this rain check, it will be good for only one design submission. If it is not approved, you loose your opportunity to create a Command Ship free of charge. To this will be added the stipulation that you will be allowed a VERY limited number, in direct porportion to the size of the rest of a factions fleets.


I agree with this statement especially. A very good idea, in my opinion, but if we only get ONE submission I'd like it if we can be told before we submit if we'll get rejected, so we don't throw away our only chance.
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I outnumber him ten million to one
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Zero
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 03:56pm    Post subject:
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Jase Denora
Zero
Ansar Kedrow


Voted: Get rid of 'em

Views:

These ships are way too powerful. Too have that much firepower, that much shielding and yet be able to operate at full capacity and speed? No way, horribly unrealistic. That much firepower alone seems like it would tka ehalf of the ship's systems to support. It just seems like a cop out to go into battle with these ships.
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Darth Avaritus
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:03pm    Post subject:
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Darth Avaritus
Boba Fett
Alex Torr
James Taggart
Lieutenant

Voted: Eliminate the superships.

These ships make the game impossible to play effectively. Naval strategy, and innovation in tactics are completely useless when superships come onto the playing field... That's because the smaller ships in a fleet, which actually served a purpose until the superships arrived, are now destroyed before they can even manuever.

Kill the superships, and bring back the fun, and challenge.
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:12pm    Post subject:
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Honestly, I think the problem is the people who create multiple classes of supership. The Empire and Alliance have the Akula and Chancellor, respectively. No offense to Alexus and Ozzy, but how many types do you have? I'd also like to point out that several of those can actually outgun the Executor from certain angles of attack.

Also, I do have one problem with this. Soon, just because someone has a better ship than someone else, that other person might scream "supership" and try to get it voted out of existence.

Finally, I'd like to point out, that in the case of the Akula, yes, it is small, fast, well-shielded, and massively armed. However, it has several restrictions placed on it. Due to its size, and demands for ordnance stowage, the ship cannot operate for extended periods. Hence the Imperial shift from a 30-ship Akula fleet to making them into command ship escorts.

That's my argument for the Akula. Now, maybe my perception is skewed because the Akula was designed by me personally, and is a part of the Imperial fleet, which I'm fairly proud of building up from seventeen capital ships and eight Star Destroyers to a force to actually be reckoned with, even in the era of the Indomitable, Sovereign, and others.

The Chancellor, however, I support keeping in the game. It is the new Rebel command ship. With a few modifications that I'm sure Han and Nevin will allow, it can leave the realm of supership and become just a command ship, without requiring a reduction in firepower and protection.

So, ultimately, I'd say they need to be reviewed and their fates dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
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Thanates Scyntor
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:16pm    Post subject:
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While I do respect the perspective you present, Ams, I look at my own particular roleplay style, and I see how I con totally abuse even one Akula into total "OMFGWTF IMBA HAX." The restrictions in place for the Akula are not in proportion... considering how I had to beg for the Genesis with it being one of a very limited number in the Imperial Fleet, I do not see how it is right - once again, just my perspective on it.

my issue is not necessarily with the use, but the potential use to someone that knows how to take advantage of the loopholes.
_________________


"I do not forgive. Look into my eyes, and you will see only the promise of Hell."

~~~~~~~~~

Brent - Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing... how embarrassing. says:
DT-IVs are MY pets
Dj (VIII is begining to piss me off.) says:
SCREW YOUR PETS!
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob says:
Indeed.
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Velora Antana
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:31pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
No offense to Alexus and Ozzy, but how many types do you have?


Uh... three between us, only two of which are used?
_________________

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"LOL DILDOS" - Cray | "FFS" - Ams | "Moff, you should know better." - Han

Alex says:
I outnumber him ten million to one
Alex says:
GOOD ODDS FOR ANY GREEK

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Crazed says:
everytime i talk to alexus, i love him a little more

Holder of the 30,000th post

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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:34pm    Post subject:
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I've approved at least five between you two.
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Velora Antana
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:36pm    Post subject:
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With respect, you're wrong.

I have the Indomitable and the Apex. Only the Apex is ever used, the Indomitable was retired permanently.

Ozzy has the Sovereign.

...

That's it. Ozzy also has the Devaron, which is a Dominant analogue. The Dominant is not a supership. Neither is the Devaron.
_________________

-Grand Admiral, Chief of Staff of Nespis Defence Force-

"LOL DILDOS" - Cray | "FFS" - Ams | "Moff, you should know better." - Han

Alex says:
I outnumber him ten million to one
Alex says:
GOOD ODDS FOR ANY GREEK

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Crazed says:
everytime i talk to alexus, i love him a little more

Holder of the 30,000th post

Inventor of the phrase "I'll get my killin' hat." (Seriously. Google it.)

"My gut can't repel comedy of that magnitude!" - Jace911
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:37pm    Post subject:
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Okay, then I apologize.
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Velora Antana
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:39pm    Post subject:
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It's an easy mistake to make, Amsicle :P
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-Grand Admiral, Chief of Staff of Nespis Defence Force-

"LOL DILDOS" - Cray | "FFS" - Ams | "Moff, you should know better." - Han

Alex says:
I outnumber him ten million to one
Alex says:
GOOD ODDS FOR ANY GREEK

Expand


Crazed says:
everytime i talk to alexus, i love him a little more

Holder of the 30,000th post

Inventor of the phrase "I'll get my killin' hat." (Seriously. Google it.)

"My gut can't repel comedy of that magnitude!" - Jace911
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Space Jawa
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 04:52pm    Post subject:
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Space Jawa (Drake IMM-3)
Nora Stark
Admiral Daala
Admiral Audacious
Lionel Wright

Vote: Kill 'em

Personally, I'd rather see a change to the combat system that would allow such ships to remain in existance while not eliminating the usefulness of smaller ships. However, as things are, I see the chances of that as being slim, and with the recent ban list that's come out, it seems as though superships are something that should be added to the top catagory.

If you arn't going to allow Death Stars and other superweapons, you shouldn't allow superships.
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:01pm    Post subject:
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Stop playing with my Amsicle. :p
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Alatáriël Pallanén
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:05pm    Post subject:
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Alatáriël Pallanén-Davad
Ryan Davad
Yoogle
Jake Callahan
Alexander Risso


Vote: Null

I'm not taking a 'side' here, I think with or without them, the game can be moderated... just obviously with new ships, requires a new system. And I think once CMAC has established an either improved battle system or an entirely new one, we'd be in business.

And next time, include a poll with more logical and less offensive options.
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Carlist Rieekan
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:07pm    Post subject:
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Carlist Rieekan
Colin Brokna
Karl Agathon
Bernard Montgomery

Vote: Kill 'em.

They ruin the game. They make things more about designing a ship more overgunned than the next guy's. Ban them all.
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Thanates Scyntor
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:13pm    Post subject:
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Arlyn, while I respect the opinions of all those on this board... your response leaves much to be desired. I am the first one to actually have the initiative to propose a way out of the continued complaining about superships, and I'm criticised for not having a more broad variety of ways to deal with it?

In presenting multiple solutions, people think "well, if there are so many ways to deal with it, why deal with it at all?" I've dealt with it in no less than three seperate instances on this board, in MSN conversations where each of my arguements was nitpicked until it was non-existant. If I present one alternative, it gives people something to talk about, and a compromise can be reached.

The next time you disagree with something, Arlyn, present a countermeasure instead of just saying "I don't like it. Make it better."

EDIT: As far as my poll is concerned, when it comes to superships you are either for them or against them. There is no "if something changes then I'll feel different." It is a perspective based on the current situation... We've tried altering the battlesystem, talked about it, and yet nothing can be reached in the way of an affirmative action. So I did the next best thing: worked towards eliminating one of the unfortunate by-products of that battlesystem.
_________________


"I do not forgive. Look into my eyes, and you will see only the promise of Hell."

~~~~~~~~~

Brent - Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing... how embarrassing. says:
DT-IVs are MY pets
Dj (VIII is begining to piss me off.) says:
SCREW YOUR PETS!
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob says:
Indeed.


Last edited by Thanates Scyntor on Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:16pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:13pm    Post subject:
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We were actually toying with a way to control both superships and giant naval zergling rushes using an EaW type system. You can only have so many "slots" on the field, and each ship has a certain number of slots.
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Nevin Antilles
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:20pm    Post subject:
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Vote: I have one and I'm not getting rid of it.

Superships aren't so incredibly super as everyone thinks. However, designs we do get frequently are ships that are like as small as freighter and can unload twice the firepower of the Executor.
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Thanates Scyntor
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:23pm    Post subject:
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In discussions with Ams, Cray, the classification of the Chancellor as a supership was an error on my part, as I was unfamiliar with the scale of the design. However, Gavin's fleet that was inbound to Thyferra with fifteen of them in a single battle squadron was highly unnerving... which is why I am working with as many people as I can to help nerf the idea of superships in other ways. Redesigns, more strict naval emplacements, things of that nature.

My appologies.

EDIT: My discussions with Ams revealed no technical specifications, only his assurances that the moniker did not qualify. I am inclined to believe him.
_________________


"I do not forgive. Look into my eyes, and you will see only the promise of Hell."

~~~~~~~~~

Brent - Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing... how embarrassing. says:
DT-IVs are MY pets
Dj (VIII is begining to piss me off.) says:
SCREW YOUR PETS!
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob says:
Indeed.


Last edited by Thanates Scyntor on Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:26pm; edited 1 time in total
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Alatáriël Pallanén
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:26pm    Post subject:
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Thanates Scyntor wrote:
Arlyn, while I respect the opinions of all those on this board... your response leaves much to be desired. I am the first one to actually have the initiative to propose a way out of the continued complaining about superships, and I'm criticised for not having a more broad variety of ways to deal with it?

In presenting multiple solutions, people think "well, if there are so many ways to deal with it, why deal with it at all?" I've dealt with it in no less than three seperate instances on this board, in MSN conversations where each of my arguements was nitpicked until it was non-existant. If I present one alternative, it gives people something to talk about, and a compromise can be reached.

The next time you disagree with something, Arlyn, present a countermeasure instead of just saying "I don't like it. Make it better." Actually use your brain for something other than finding new pictures.


Thanates, hardly. I just thought you'd be more creative and express the poll in multiple viewpoints to actually get a feel of the players, instead of everything adjusted to fulfill your purpose. Instead you are making those that support or enjoy the atmosphere of superships, defensive and less welcome to this discussion.

Whatever. I thought you'd be more open to people expressing their own views here, and take them more with kind and positive words than 'Actually use your brain for something other than finding new pictures.' If you need to resort this to get your point across in front of your supporters, do so. But in my eyes, you fail to be open-minded, you fail to welcome the difference of opinions and belittle those for doing so. I stated a NEUTRAL claim, yet you snapped on me.

Whatever Thanates.
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:26pm    Post subject:
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No, it's a supership of sorts. But that can be easily fixed. :p
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Velora Antana
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:29pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
Vote: I have one and I'm not getting rid of it.

Superships aren't so incredibly super as everyone thinks. However, designs we do get frequently are ships that are like as small as freighter and can unload twice the firepower of the Executor.


Quote:
Ams, Cray, Han... please, if you want, post your views but do not vote.


Bad Cray :P

BTW I PMed you.
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-Grand Admiral, Chief of Staff of Nespis Defence Force-

"LOL DILDOS" - Cray | "FFS" - Ams | "Moff, you should know better." - Han

Alex says:
I outnumber him ten million to one
Alex says:
GOOD ODDS FOR ANY GREEK

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Crazed says:
everytime i talk to alexus, i love him a little more

Holder of the 30,000th post

Inventor of the phrase "I'll get my killin' hat." (Seriously. Google it.)

"My gut can't repel comedy of that magnitude!" - Jace911


Last edited by Velora Antana on Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:33pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nevin Antilles
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 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:33pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Oh, I'm sorry. *unvotes*
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Thanates Scyntor
Corporal


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 208
Location: inside your head

 Post Posted: Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:34pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

First, please kindly pay attention to the edits.

Second, I do respect other peoples opinions insomuch as they present them to me in a way I can not only understand, but also accept. Your presentation was, as I said, "I don't like it. Make it better." You didn't present any alternate theories, no other ways of dealing with an issue that has been plaguing us for over a year... simply, you provided a statement that stated your disinterest in the options I provided.

My counter was intended to convey not only to you but the rest of the board that the problem we've been facing on a larger scale was that nobody is presenting any other ideas, just saying "I don't like what you are saying." Being stubborn is all well and good, as long as you can quantify it with a resonable rebuttal and a willingness to listen to other peoples perspectives. But being stubborn for the sake of not wanting to change things because it would take too much effort on your part is not something I am willing to accept, and thus I responded in a way I felt befit such a mindset.

If you have any ideas or concerns about my proposed method of fixing this problem, I would be more than happy to hear them... but I do not like people that are contrary by nature, for no other reason than the sake of being contradictory. I am a very patient man, but I am not tolerant of people that do not excercise themselves in a way that befits the gift of sentience we have been blessed with. I've discussed matters with no less than four individuals (Dj, Ams, Jase, and Alex) and I believe I am close to proposing a situation that will be to the benefit of the board as a whole.

If you want to discuss such matters, feel free to post an alternative theory.

EDIT: youd think I'd remember to put these things while I'm making the original post, but meh :P And as far as being hostile to those that support superships, I am because the ones that support them, in ym experience, are also the ones that scream about other factions having them... which tells me that people want their way and want to rule the rest of the board through whining and complaining (not mentioning any names, and I request nobody else do either).

And personally, given my fleet tactics and the way i have impacted the board as Cartos, I think I have a right to be standoff-ish against people that think like that.
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"I do not forgive. Look into my eyes, and you will see only the promise of Hell."

~~~~~~~~~

Brent - Lost a planet Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing... how embarrassing. says:
DT-IVs are MY pets
Dj (VIII is begining to piss me off.) says:
SCREW YOUR PETS!
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob says:
Indeed.


Last edited by Thanates Scyntor on Sat, March 03rd 2007 05:39pm; edited 1 time in total
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