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The Battle System (Inquiry)
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Star Wars: Episode VIII: Binds of Tyranny Forum Index » Questions and Suggestions » The Battle System (Inquiry)
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Eve
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 Post Posted: Fri, April 18th 2008 08:59pm    Post subject: The Battle System (Inquiry)
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Can we get somekind of Battle System Handbook, perhaps?

Like, information detailing the various types of battles which could be broken into:

- Ground

- Atmosphere

- Space

(then the many subcategories, to those, may include terrain such as oceanic worlds, swamps, desert, and other factors.)

For ground battles, maybe the capital city, and two other designations could be made for victory. I was playing Star Wars Battlefront yesterday, and thought, "Wow, it would be cool if SWVIII was like this." then I thought about it, and wondered why not?

I think sending a general group of troops is great, and all, but to different terrain, comes different advantages. A swampy world may cause complications to an AT-AT, and a desert world may slow troop advancement, and the such.

I'm not sure what kind of system we have in place, but it would be nice to get an official SWVIII handbook that lays out the scenarios. Some would have to be handled on an individual basis and CMAC, but generally, perhaps the players would have someform of guidance.

My second thought of the Battle System would be Characters vs. Players. Some characters are better suited to win the battles, than the players that play them. If you were to put a newbie behind Ackbar versus say a third rate captain played by (Insert Imperial Player Name), it may go towards the veteran player, whereas the real battle should've been handed to Ackbar because of his established prowess.

Hopefully that makes sense...
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Adria Reyna
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 Post Posted: Sat, April 19th 2008 12:13am    Post subject:
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If the person can't carry off the character then they should have it reclaimed, if the Imperial player can play his Captain at a superior tactical level than Ackbar, then he/she/it is evidently a newly forged superior officer capable of beating the once-great Admiral. Having someone scream 'I AM ACKBAR THEREFORE I WIN' does not serve the best intrests of the board...if the player can't play to a better tactical ability than another, then they should sit down and think about strategy before they fly into battle.

Character shields are fine, character superpowers can go sit where the sun quite rightly doesn't shine - noone is infalible in Star Wars, not even Thrawn, who would be a walking godmod if you gave that...Rory with his allready decent tactical skills combined with approved character special-abilities would be deadly.

Tactical battles in real life don't work like Battlefront, and in my own opinion thats a far to localised and grossly simplified version of things...if you were to suggest something like...say...the Total War series, then I would suggest to you that that is the way forwards...troop clusters are important, because I can easily flank a cluster if its specified.
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Alatáriël Pallanén
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 Post Posted: Sat, April 19th 2008 01:35am    Post subject:
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Adria Reyna wrote:
If the person can't carry off the character then they should have it reclaimed, if the Imperial player can play his Captain at a superior tactical level than Ackbar, then he/she/it is evidently a newly forged superior officer capable of beating the once-great Admiral. Having someone scream 'I AM ACKBAR THEREFORE I WIN' does not serve the best interests of the board...if the player can't play to a better tactical ability than another, then they should sit down and think about strategy before they fly into battle.


You've missed my point, but I'll try to correct (as I didn't explain well enough, or barely at all). Obviously using certain characters and writing ability does come into play. That I understand, and is the basis of the forum. I did not question this, nor do I think anyone running around with Ackbar/Thrawn/Palpatine for that matter, is undefeatable. My point, however, would be original characters and their own abilities versus the abilities of the player.

I've tried to learn the battle system here. It's hard, and quite frankly, none of us truly know how it works. If I were to ask detailed and specific questions, I'm sure we would all disagree at the verdict, and ultimately, it's only Ams's opinion that matters. That is why I'm calling this out before it all hits the fan. I want to know what's legal, and what's not. Do I get certain "that's a complete idiotic move, Ackbar would never do that" saves, in example, "Firing ion cannons out of distance." Shouldn't the ship captain KNOW that?

And a lot of this could be prevented if somekind of guide was formed.

How are battles initiated? What's the general posting exchange?

Common mistakes... common oversights, like, "Turbolasers" When do they overheat, generally, how long between shots...

how effective are ion cannons, and when are they most effective?

Adria Reyna wrote:
Character shields are fine, character superpowers can go sit where the sun quite rightly doesn't shine - noone is infalible in Star Wars, not even Thrawn, who would be a walking godmod if you gave that...Rory with his allready decent tactical skills combined with approved character special-abilities would be deadly.


There is a fine line to what I'm requesting, and what you just described. I do not believe character abilities and the player's skills should be added, I think they compliment each other, but when a player falls short (where his or her character shouldn't) I don't think that side should be penalized for it. In example, if I didn't know a rule was established where troops can't be sent across a desert, and 30% of them end up dehydrated and with one clip of ammo, I'm frakked. It wasn't because my character didn't know that outcome could be generated, but myself.

Adria Reyna wrote:
Tactical battles in real life don't work like Battlefront, and in my own opinion thats a far to localised and grossly simplified version of things...if you were to suggest something like...say...the Total War series, then I would suggest to you that that is the way forwards...troop clusters are important, because I can easily flank a cluster if its specified.


Perhaps you could explain the Total War series, versus tossing the name out there? I think it would help our descriptions and my ability to agree or disagree with you. I also think it would be A LOT of work to handle those battles on a grand scale, with one Battlemaster, and possibly dozens of battles to generate results for. This isn't meant to be Real Life. It's a game, and one that should have a list of what to expect, and what not to expect.

And in an effort to escape belittlement or any kind of detouring confrontations, I value Adria's input. His advice is always interesting, whether I agree or disagree, and if more people would like to say what's on their minds, I'd appreciate it.
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Adria Reyna
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 Post Posted: Sat, April 19th 2008 01:55pm    Post subject:
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Alatáriël Pallanén wrote:
There is a fine line to what I'm requesting, and what you just described. I do not believe character abilities and the player's skills should be added, I think they compliment each other, but when a player falls short (where his or her character shouldn't) I don't think that side should be penalized for it. In example, if I didn't know a rule was established where troops can't be sent across a desert, and 30% of them end up dehydrated and with one clip of ammo, I'm frakked. It wasn't because my character didn't know that outcome could be generated, but myself.


This would be exactly what I'm saying shouldn't happen, if a player's abilities fall short, then they fall short...not to sound too accusatory, but from what I can tell, the reason you seem to be exploring this line of discussion is that you fear that the Imperials have severly better players when it comes to a tactical situation. In short your idea is to create a crutch for your players to prevent yourself beeing outdone by the Imperials, and frankly I think thats a little crooked given that it allows for you to succeed despite beeing incapable.

To throw in an example, I've deliberatly decided not to have any characters in command of Naval forces, because my skill with space-based combat isn't exactly up to scratch. I personally prefer ground combat and, knowing my weakness, have chosen to only take millitary characters that practice in my strength of ground operations.

VIII operates in a primarily tactical based system, if you lack competant commanders then you should either be making damned sure you make up for that by either trying to improve your understanding of combat (use the assesment room) or ensuring you have millitary hardware that allows you to put up a fight against a tactically superior opponen.

I do agree with modifying the ground combat system to take account of differing environments, certainly me and Rory have put a lot of thought into organising Stormtroopers with environmental specialities for that obvious reason.

But to underline the point, if your enemy has superior tactical abilities, then it is your own fault for throwing untested players against them, scrutinise your commanders a bit more, and think about planning for eventualities instead of trying to get OOC crutches.
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, April 19th 2008 02:02pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
Can we get somekind of Battle System Handbook, perhaps?

Like, information detailing the various types of battles which could be broken into:

- Ground

- Atmosphere

- Space

(then the many subcategories, to those, may include terrain such as oceanic worlds, swamps, desert, and other factors.)

Once the battle system itself is finalized and I get couple weeks free, I'd be glad to write up a handbook.


Quote:
For ground battles, maybe the capital city, and two other designations could be made for victory. I was playing Star Wars Battlefront yesterday, and thought, "Wow, it would be cool if SWVIII was like this." then I thought about it, and wondered why not?

I've considered that, but it's ultimately unrealistic. Of course, so is engaging and destroying ever last trooper on the planet. So, we need to work out something there. Obviously, capturing a planetary capital is a major symbolic victory, and likely strategic too since the enemy is probably going to have their best troops in large numbers to protect it. Still, simply planting the flag in the capital doesn't mean instant victory. Look at TPM.

Quote:
I think sending a general group of troops is great, and all, but to different terrain, comes different advantages. A swampy world may cause complications to an AT-AT, and a desert world may slow troop advancement, and the such.

That's already considered in the system.

Quote:
I'm not sure what kind of system we have in place, but it would be nice to get an official SWVIII handbook that lays out the scenarios. Some would have to be handled on an individual basis and CMAC, but generally, perhaps the players would have someform of guidance.

As soon as we know, we'll gladly share. :p

Quote:
My second thought of the Battle System would be Characters vs. Players. Some characters are better suited to win the battles, than the players that play them. If you were to put a newbie behind Ackbar versus say a third rate captain played by (Insert Imperial Player Name), it may go towards the veteran player, whereas the real battle should've been handed to Ackbar because of his established prowess

I have to agree with both of you on this one. I guess my ultimate answer is what CMAC has been saying, usually subtley, all along: don't try to play above your ability. That's not an insult, mind you. But if you know nothing of ships and naval structuring, you really have no business as an admiral or shipwright. Or if you take a character because you think you will automatically be imbued with their powers, well... if you can figure out how to use them, fine. But it should never be the case where a player enters a battle, proclaims "I AM THRAWN/ACKBAR/PALPATINE/GENERAL GRIEVOUS" and thus automatically wins. That's pretty much power-playing in one of its many forms. Now, an RP-minded player on the opposing side might decide that the entry of one of those commanders may intimidate their character enough that they surrender. But, uh, no offense... I don't think many people here will do that. :p

Quote:
Character shields are fine, character superpowers can go sit where the sun quite rightly doesn't shine - noone is infalible in Star Wars, not even Thrawn, who would be a walking godmod if you gave that...Rory with his allready decent tactical skills combined with approved character special-abilities would be deadly.

Absolutely.

Quote:
Tactical battles in real life don't work like Battlefront, and in my own opinion thats a far to localised and grossly simplified version of things...if you were to suggest something like...say...the Total War series, then I would suggest to you that that is the way forwards...troop clusters are important, because I can easily flank a cluster if its specified.

Another good point. I want the wars to be more realistic than simply "I HAVE YOUR BASE I WIN." There will be survivors, stragglers, resistances, and all of that. Now, I'm not saying that every last source of opposition has be removed for CMAC to declare the planet formally taken. We'll likely do it on a case-by-case basis.

Quote:
My point, however, would be original characters and their own abilities versus the abilities of the player.

I've tried to learn the battle system here. It's hard, and quite frankly, none of us truly know how it works. If I were to ask detailed and specific questions, I'm sure we would all disagree at the verdict, and ultimately, it's only Ams's opinion that matters. That is why I'm calling this out before it all hits the fan. I want to know what's legal, and what's not. Do I get certain "that's a complete idiotic move, Ackbar would never do that" saves, in example, "Firing ion cannons out of distance." Shouldn't the ship captain KNOW that?

I take it you refer to the duel between Nespis and the Empire in the Assessment room. :p Range is a new addition, and I'm using that as a testbed for some ideas. If it's finalized, I'll gladly publish tables for it so the necessary information is available.

Quote:
There is a fine line to what I'm requesting, and what you just described. I do not believe character abilities and the player's skills should be added, I think they compliment each other, but when a player falls short (where his or her character shouldn't) I don't think that side should be penalized for it. In example, if I didn't know a rule was established where troops can't be sent across a desert, and 30% of them end up dehydrated and with one clip of ammo, I'm frakked. It wasn't because my character didn't know that outcome could be generated, but myself.

Again, when such systems go into effect, there will be announcements so people know.

Quote:
Perhaps you could explain the Total War series, versus tossing the name out there? I think it would help our descriptions and my ability to agree or disagree with you. I also think it would be A LOT of work to handle those battles on a grand scale, with one Battlemaster, and possibly dozens of battles to generate results for. This isn't meant to be Real Life. It's a game, and one that should have a list of what to expect, and what not to expect.

Do you mean things in the vein of Rome and Medieval Total War? And yes, battles are a great deal of work, though we are doing some streamlining. However, I do intend these games to be realistic in SW terms... that's been my goal since VII. :p

Quote:
But to underline the point, if your enemy has superior tactical abilities, then it is your own fault for throwing untested players against them, scrutinise your commanders a bit more, and think about planning for eventualities instead of trying to get OOC crutches.

Basically. If a player cannot handle a certain scenario, then they should not be in it. Now, if it's unavoidable (a last stand kind of thing), I can see admins being more sympathetic, but we still don't give away free victories because we feel sorry for someone. :p

Hope that helps.
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Velora Antana
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 Post Posted: Sat, April 19th 2008 02:16pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
.if you were to suggest something like...say...the Total War series, then I would suggest to you that that is the way forwards...troop clusters are important, because I can easily flank a cluster if its specified.


TW only works for wars up until about 1815, you don't get huge blocks of troops any more. Wars from 1930 onwards (which is what SW is more about) were fought by millions of troops spread over fronts hundreds of miles long, and battles were thousands of localised engagements, not massive "clusters" charging each other across the plain like in Total War :P
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Sat, April 19th 2008 02:47pm    Post subject:
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That reminds me... if you call the movie GCW World War II, that kinda equates Clone Wars to WWI chronologically. You can also see it in the tactics (massive rush of clones versus mass of droids, later it's engaging from behind entrenched positions). So, that kinda places us in the later fifties or early sixties. :p

So bear that in mind when you try to find pictures of stuff. >_>
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Alatáriël Pallanén
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 Post Posted: Sun, April 20th 2008 12:23am    Post subject:
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Ams Jendob, you're amazing.

It helped a lot, and ended my inquiry. Thanks. : )
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 Post Posted: Sun, April 20th 2008 08:15am    Post subject:
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We can has space hugs?
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 Post Posted: Sun, April 20th 2008 07:59pm    Post subject:
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Yes, we can Velora... right next to the staircase over here...
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Xaph
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 04:13pm    Post subject:
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Ams Jendob wrote:
That reminds me... if you call the movie GCW World War II, that kinda equates Clone Wars to WWI chronologically. You can also see it in the tactics (massive rush of clones versus mass of droids, later it's engaging from behind entrenched positions). So, that kinda places us in the later fifties or early sixties. :p

So bear that in mind when you try to find pictures of stuff. >_>


I'd (respectable) disagree with that. The key different between World War I warfare and World War II wasn't entrenchment or defensive positions, it was actually Maneuver Warfare vs. Position Warfare.

In World War I, you had the sort of trench fighting that we see in the Battle of Hoth: men would spend weeks fighting over these little patches of land, just to lose them as quickly as they were gained. The war was fought over these huge stretches of trenches, and very little else (speaking solely of the ground theatre, not any other one).

With World War II, and the introduction of tanks as a serious weapon, the lines quickly changed: Hitler's blitzkrieg focused on quickly breaking through and attacking the command structure of the enemy. To stall your advance to 'entrench' was just inviting the enemy to shoot you.

The Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Endor are really our only movie canon representations of ground warfare, and as you can see, both are fought in the 'Position' style of warfare: the Empire are defending their bunker, and the Rebels defending theirs with a series of trenches.

Looking then at the Clone Wars (taking, for example, the Battle of Courscant from the cartoon, and the Battle of Geonosis from Episode II), we see that the forces are far more about 'Movement'. The LAAT/is are, in fact, designed with that sort of warfare in mind (you can easily compare those gunships to modern-day helicopters: the key is to insert operatives into key areas and have them accomplish a mission, while still being able to provide Close Air Support). The Battle of Courscant's key was a strike deep into enemy territory, striking the heart of their command (both military and political) by capturing Palpatine. The Battle of Geonosis is, as you pointed out, 'masses of troops rushing towards each other'. While this may not be the most elegant example of Maneuver Warfare, it is also clearly not an example of Position.

Alot of this, though, has to do with the decentralization of command, and micro-management, so I ask out of curiosity: at what strategic level does the Battle System operate for ground conflicts?
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 04:16pm    Post subject:
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It's squad based :roll: I think we need a system for strategic manuever and positioning, etc, and a system for the operational level, as in the actual battles.
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 04:19pm    Post subject:
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Personally if I ran the Battle System, I would decide what level each battle was on a case-by-case basis...the squad system (a squad just being nine men) seems really, really small...but, in certain situations, I can see it working. Really, it should depend on the character's rank, and if several players or characters were involved, each one would occupy a different position on the chain of command.

But wait...don't you guys use dice for your Battle System?
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 04:23pm    Post subject:
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That's being worked out too. I'm certainly not gonna ask a corps to be moved squad-by-squad.
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 04:28pm    Post subject:
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That's cool. But do you use a dice system, or one closer to the one I suggested a looooooong time ago?
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 04:50pm    Post subject:
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Ams Jendob wrote:
That's being worked out too. I'm certainly not gonna ask a corps to be moved squad-by-squad.


Phew!
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 05:04pm    Post subject:
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We haven't used dice since early VII. :p
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 05:04pm    Post subject:
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Random probability generators, then :p
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 Post Posted: Thu, May 29th 2008 05:17pm    Post subject:
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Heh heh heh. Just for planets. :p
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